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Saturday, June 2, 2018

Interesting excerpts from the Ed. Forum


Interesting excerpts from the Ed. Forum

Late May/ early June 2018

BUILDING ROOFTOPS thread:

DAVID LIFTON



Where have you been?

If you followed Palamara's blog. or read his book, you would know that he established these facts years ago.

There was no "misconception" about the case. 

All of this was laid out quite clearly years ago. (Maybe you were under a misconception?)

You should watch his video of what happened when Clint Hill was on C-Span, with Brian Lamb, and Lamb forced Hill to comment on Palamara's work.

DSL



JIM DIEUGENIO

That is just excellent stuff Vince.

This is what I always thought:  Dallas was a hostile city.  You had Dealey mouthing off to Kennedy right in front of him in 1961, right?

Then you had the Stevenson incident in 1963.

As noted above, they did not want him to go to Alabama.

But somehow, in comparison to Houston and Tampa, the protection is absolutely anemic in Dallas.  And you have  ten agents getting bombed the night before!  As I have always maintained, because that route was a perfect set up for an L shaped ambush, you needed to supplement the coverage with local law enforcement, as you have shown happened before. And by the way, a Navy special forces officer informed me of how their sniper teams rehearsed the L shaped ambush.  It was a sure fire effective way to allow no escape for the target if you had three teams: one at the end of the L, one at the top of the L, and one at the intersection of the two lines.  And that is what you had in Dealey Plaza.

Rowley's cover up, which extended well after the assassination, saved about a dozen people from being fired.

 

------


 

Secret Service security and press coverage for JFK pre-11/22/63


That is really good Vince.  

You really corrected a misconception about the case.

Dallas was not the rule at all.  It was an exception. And the fact that it was a hostile environment and they knew it beforehand, makes it all the worse.



GREG WAGNER

Good work, Vince. Thank you!

CORY SANTOS

Just a thanks for the good work you have done.



B.A. COPELAND

Thanks for all you do Vince. I can't tell you how many times I've listened to your audios with Len lol. I hate to go there somewhat but you know that kind of character assassination reminds me of JFK Jr. after his plane crash. It seemed quite common, after his death, was how much of a risk taker he was, etc. Its just sad. Anyways, back on topic (apologies but really felt it was relevant with this seeming trend to Kennedy-bash postmortem....)



From WHO CHANGED THE MOTORCADE ROUTE? Thread

JIM DIEUGENIO

in my opinion, the best answer to this is in Vince Palamara's book. From my cheesy web site, this is part of my review of Survivor's Guilt which addresses the issue […] What Vince does here is he shows with multi sources that, as Jim Garrison first stated, the route was altered.  People like the shill McAdams, who have said it was not, just did not do any research on the subject. Of course, if he had and discovered this, he would have hushed it up anyway.

Anybody who has ever been to Dealey Plaza, and stood atop the trestle and looked down at the motorcade path, I mean you just shake your head in disgust.  I have said it before and I will say it now: it was like the hit team designed the route.  What more could you have asked for? The fact that the WC never called anyone on the carpet for this route or pointed out all the problems it posed for protection, that says all you need to know about them.

  [RESPONDING TO DVP]

Davey:

Let us turn the tables on you.

Were all his witnesses lying who said they were introduced to the route about 24 hours before the motorcade?

This would be Batchelor, Bellah, Jones and Dale. Hmm.

Now, as anyone with any knowledge of the case knows, there was a battle royal over this. On the one hand you had Bruno and the Washington contingent who did not want it at the Trade Mart, while you had Connally, the Secret Service and Harris who pushed for it.  And in fact, that battle went on for weeks and different notices were posted.

Any why ignore this during your tantrum: " As the HSCA attorney in charge of the motorcade route inquiry wrote, "Any map of Dallas in 1963 shows that it was easy to reach the Trade Mart on streets that join Main on the West side of the overpass."

That explains why even if the Connally people had won out, that weird route was not necessary.

What you quoted from the WC was a letter by Rowley.  Hmm.  

This is the guy who tried to hide the 11/22/63 press conference with Perry from the WC.  He also tried to conceal the drunken escapades of the Secret Service the night before until 4 AM. Lawson is also used.  But if you read Palamara, he was in on the last minute decision.

And why you keep on saying that the route was solidified on November 19th because it was in the papers, that does not at all justify itself as an argument.

If it did then the route pictured on 11/22 on the front page of the Dallas Morning News would not have appeared: it does not show the doglegs Davey Boy. (Destiny Betrayed, first edition, p. 57)

Now, much more revealing that anything you have offered is a summary of the DMN coverage I did for that book. On November 16th, the motorcade was going down Main Street, no doglegs.  On November 19th, the route described included the doglegs. But a day later, the doglegs were eliminated.  And on the day of the assassination, the pictured route continued in that vein.

Your continuing tendency to cherry pick evidence, as you already did with Marina, is really a disturbing quality of your postings here.  And no matter how many times you get called out on it, that grievous tendency of yours is never eradicated.

Davey's reply above is right out of the John McAdams playbook.

The doglegs on the 11/22 map Dallas Morning News map would have been too hard to include in a small diagram.

LOL  ROTF, LMAO 

You got exposed for misleading people for what had been in the papers, right?  You tried to insinuate that it was depicted in only one way for over a week in advance.  

It was not!!

Its that simple. And the map is right in my book.  That is a FACT, not a theory.

The obvious question then is why was the wrong route in the papers? Were the papers trying to mislead the public?  Probably not.  The logical answer is that they were getting different signals from different sources.

And why ignore this:As the HSCA attorney in charge of the motorcade route inquiry wrote, "Any map of Dallas in 1963 shows that it was easy to reach the Trade Mart on streets that join Main on the West side of the overpass."

And when Paz said "totally agree" she said that in response to my statement that the route Kennedy rode on could have been devised by a sniper running the ambush.  And I completely stand by that statement. I formulated it way back in 1993 when I stood on that trestle and looked down into Dealey Plaza and scanned the scene 180 degrees. And to me that is the cinching argument.  That route violated every rule of Secret Service protection, and that should have been the prime guideline for a milieu as hostile to Kennedy as Dallas.  And if you needed any proof, just look what happened to Stevenson a few weeks earlier. Look at Kennedy's meeting with that rightwing nut Mr. Dealey.  


Now, knowing that, how could any Secret Service officer pick such a route?  Consider:

1. Two hard turns, right and left, within a block of each other.  Thus, slowing the car down to ten MPH.

2. High buildings behind the car at this speed, with windows open.

3. Escape route behind both of those buildings.

4. Slightly rolling hill in front, with a picket fence to hide any assassin from the crowd below them.

5. Escape route behind the fence, I mean a  parking lot!

6. The late Sherry Fiester also concluded that there was another possible sniper's lair on the other side, the south knoll, and this also had a parking lot adjacent to it.

 

In other words, you probably could not have devised a better scenario if you were running a Secret Service class titled How Not to Approve a Motorcade Route. And I am altogether serious in that, its not at all satirical.  Every single officer involved in the approval of that route should have been fired.  But Rowley, as we know, was playing a PR game with the Warren Commission. He was already trying to cover up the night before at Kirkwood's when the Secret Service guys were getting bombed until 4 AM. And if you can believe it, they paid firemen to protect JFK at the hotel.

There was simply no excuse for approving that route. And Davey can scream and holler and misrepresent the newspapers, and borrow from McAdams and demean Vince Palamara and his witnesses all he wants. Because that is what he does with his life.  But I repeat: There was no excuse for the approval of that route.  Period.

 When you add together the facts about Lawson and Sorrels and their promotion of false witnesses after the fact and Lawson reducing the number of cycles and moving them to the rear of the limo, plus the facts that there really was confusion about the route, and the papers were reporting the wrong route ON THE DAY OF THE MOTORCADE, I mean what more do you need to conclude that something is wrong with this picture?

Let me also add this:  IMO, the reason that Blaine came out with his book is simple.  

Between the works of Black, Bolden and Palamara, plus the SS defiance of the ARRB, the Secret Service had to get something out there to try and deflect the exposure of their unbelievably bad performance in Dallas. And also their cover up about it afterwards.  

What a crock of Von Peinian baloney. Here we go again.  He gets exposed on his misrepresentations and so now he tries to make stuff up about what the reporters were thinking. As if he knows.

Then he says there was was no real change and it was only about some  "confusion".

Note the effort to discount VInce's book which started this whole thing.  Please note the witnesses below and what they say:

Palamara later adds that the final route was not actually decided upon until November 20th. He feels that this change, which included the dogleg, was kept secret after being authorized in Washington by agent Floyd Boring. In a suppressed Commission document the author found, the assistant police chief, Charles Batchelor, revealed that the secrecy about this change in the route made it hard for the local authorities to furnish any help to the Secret Service. (p. 105) Another witness, Sgt. Sam Bellah told the author that the police did not know about the route change until the evening of November 21st. Bellah said the original plan did not have the motorcade pass in front of the Texas School Book Depository. Bellah said that his commander, Captain Lawrence, came to his home late on the evening of the 21st. He took him to the triple underpass to show Bellah the new route for the motorcycle advance escort, of which Bellah was a part. (ibid) Bellah said that there was never any explanation as to why the route was changed at the last moment.

Another local policeman, Captain Orville Jones told author Larry Sneed the same thing. That the motorcade route was changed just prior to the 22nd. Jones told the author that many people he knew in the Secret Service did not approve of going through Dealey Plaza at all. There were other routes discussed which avoided the triple underpass. (ibid)

Another witness to this strange alteration was motorcycle officer Bobby Joe Dale. Dale said that there was more than one route discussed and reviewed by the police. In fact, three had been bandied about. Dale said it was not until Kennedy's arrival at Love Field that morning that he was alerted to what the actual route was going to be. (ibid, p. 106)

Also, note the change of tactics.  Now he says well, all those people must be lying.

Yeah Davey,  Only Rowley, Lawson, and Sorrels were telling the truth.

Oh and I forgot, Gerald Blaine.

Davey, if you are saying they are all wrong, then what are you insinuating?  Those witnesses were all clearly quoted by Vince.

They all said there was a last minute change to the route.  its pretty much straightforward.  I mean I do not know how anyone can misconstrue them.  For example, Bellah says someone came to his house on the 21st to personally escort him to the changed route. This was the night before.  He then says he was never given an explanation as to why.

Now if you say there was no changed route, and he says there was a change, and he knows this from his personal experience, then please explain to me what else the explanation could be?

Was the witness suffering from dementia and Vince did not know he was in such a state?  Did Vince pay him for the story?  Did he want to make a name for himself?

Please choose one or more of the above.

To me, and to most others, the most logical observation is you think he is lying. I don't think the other explanations have much credibility, unless you can prove one of them. Which, as we know from past experience, you will not since you will not leave Indiana.

BTW, the other tactic used by DVP above, showing the 11/19 story reveals another trait of his.  He does not what he does not know.  Including that he is licked.

See, Freund wrote a story on the sixteenth, which said the motorcade would come down Main Street. 

Freund then printed the story above, on the 19th, that included the dogleg.

On the 20th, the DMN changed it to the Main Street only directions.

Then on the 22nd, it printed a map which only included the Main Street route.

Therefore, if you go by the stories, which DVP originally misrepresented, the route was changed after the 19th.

That would align with VInce's witnesses.

Do I think that solves it?  Nope. The only way you solve this thing conclusively, is the way a real criminal investigator does it.  He confronts the people in authority with their own acts and with contradictory witnesses. 

 That did not happen with the WC, since they were sops for the higher ups. But I do think the weight of the evidence does indicate the route was changed.

[DVP: They are wrong, certainly. But I don't think any of them are liars.]

Davey, this is what you said, in your usual bombastic style at the beginning of this thread:

That's ridiculous, and Vince Palamara has to know it. The Houston-to-Elm dogleg was described in the November 19th Dallas newspapers, which makes perfect sense considering what I just said above about the route being officially announced on Nov. 18. Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th [as seen in CE1363].

Who does Palamara think he's kidding?

Now, that is misrepresenting things because you only used the DMN of the 19th.  Which is not the whole story at all.  As I proved above.  This is a very disturbing tendency of yours: cherry picking.

Now when I said the above about after the 19th, I was using your logic. Since you were relying on the papers and public announcements. As i noted above, I do not think personally that this solves it.  But Bellah's story supersedes your DTH story since it came after it.

And I also fail to see how someone can be "wrong" about a personal experience. 

 I do not have the story from DMN on the 20th. My files were given to Bill Davy.

DVP, at beginning of this thread: 

"Therefore, the dogleg was part of the motorcade route as of November 18th, otherwise the Dallas Morning News couldn't have printed the route in its paper on the morning of the 19th"

My comment about five frames ago:

"Now when I said the above about after the 19th, I was using your logic."  Since we now know it was not in the DMN after that on the 20th or 22nd.

Case closed.

[Michael Clark: Michael,

Right.  Notice this archive of the Dallas Morning News conflicts with David Pein's.  David's has a map of the motorcade while the one located at Baylor University shows the weather report.  Also there is this that backs-up my claim.

Although both the Dallas Morning News and the Times-Herald carried the release of the motorcade route on the 19th, including the turn onto Elm St. ( 22 H 614 - 615 ), the next day, the Morning News described the motorcade route with no mention of the Elm St. turn. ( 22 H 616 )

Did David Von Pein know about this discrepancy when he posted it? I do notice that one has 4 stars, and another has 3, presumably different editions.]

[BACK TO JIM:] If anything shows that there was a conflict about the route, I guess this really does.

STEVE JAFFE:

Regarding the motorcade route, it seems clear that the Secret Service was in charge, not the White House (see Jerry Bruno's book on "Dallas"). That the actual route was Main St. or Elm was something known internally. Garrison thought it had been known but not published intentionally. It broke all Secret Service rules. Slow down the target for the triangulated crossfire. The removal of agent Lawton from the back of the presidential limo at the airport by Roberts speaks volumes. 

[BACK TO JIM:] Welcome Vince.

Keep it coming.  Your work on the route change was really good I think.  Its got DVP in a panic.

RON BULMAN: I've been re reading chapter 4 of Vince Palamara's Survivors Guilt, "The Trade Mart & The Mystery of The Motorcade Route".  It was and still is enlightening but yet confusing.  Agents statements contradict each other and sometimes their own over time.  It still is and may always be at least in part a mystery and it seems that was intentional.  That said, I still don't think it was so much a "change" of the route for certain parties within the Secret Service and for that matter the CIA as much as intentional obfuscation.  That the issue of getting from Main and Houston to the Trade Mart was purposefully not finalized or really even addressed. People were let think what they may.  On down Main to Industrial, the "safer" way, or the normal, logical quicker way that was to take the freeway.

This is one of the last things he addresses in the chapter.  "In addition to the change made to it, the motorcade route was largely kept secret, even from key Secret Service and Dallas police officials."  "SSA's Greer, the driver, and Kellerman riding beside him told the WC they had no knowledge of the route."  "DPD Chief Curry testified...not consulted...learned of the route on 11/21/63 via agents Lawson and Sorrels."  "DPD Asst. Chief Batchelor...believed the failure of the SS to inform the police adequately in advance of the exact route... prevented them from adequately organizing their men and taking the necessary security precautions."  "Sgt. Bellah, late in the PM (11/21/63) My Capt. ... wanted me to go with him to the triple underpass.  The NEW (route) was Main, cross Houston, go forward under the underpass, turn right, cross Elm, to the entrance to the expressway.  As you know this was changed to Main-Houston-Elm."  So the "New" route on the evening of 11/21 involved jumping the curbs to get to Elm.  But It was changed to the one taken the net day?  What was the Old route, Main to Industrial?

Chapter 4 starts with this " On November 4, 1963, SAIC of the Dallas Secret Service office, Forrest V. sorrels, prematurely approved the Trade mart as the site for JFK's speech in Dallas; the very day Sorrels was notified by SAIC Jerry Behn about the upcoming trip."  Why?  Who would have suggested it at that point.  Keep in mind this immediate decision was reached 19 days, lees than 3 weeks after Oswald started to work at the TSBD on October 16th.

"The Dallas Times Herald on 11/15/63 ran a headline entitled "Trade Mart named for JFK luncheon".  What this meant to a few thousand people who worked in downtown Dallas and lived to the west or northwest as well as courier's and deliverymen knew was that if JFK was in a parade coming down Main then going to the Trade Mart he would cut over to Elm at some point to access the Only entrance to Stemmons Freeway heading west , from Dealy Plaza, as they did every day.  They didn't jump the curb or go on down to the slower (45mph?) Industrial to take it to Irving or I-35, which is where Stemmons Freeway itself basically ended at the time.  I don't remember the "winos, potholes and auto parts dealers" (though I don't doubt they were there) on Industrial one author mentioned in describing the area several years ago.  I do remember it being Industrial, as in warehouses.  One set of my grandparents lived in Irving for several years before and after the assassination.  We lived in Denver at the time but a year before or after, at the age of about 5 or 7, I remember being taken along with my mother and grandmother down Irving Blvd which turned into Industrial when you crossed into the Dallas city limits.  We went to a warehouse.  A railroad surplus in one on Industrial, they sold everything from furniture to shoes to (sometimes dented) canned goods, I remember seeing other warehouses around.   My point is, even without the wino's etc., taking JFK on a longer, slower route with not a lot of people around to see him was likely never really seriously considered as an option.  But it was pretty well the only one available without going even slower down backstreet with lot's of turns.  Or jumping the curb(s) in the limo.

"The Secret Service premature approval of the Trade Mart by members of the Dallas Office and Floyd Boring, over the objections of O'Donnell, Behn and Bruno made this site an inevitability, and thus narrowed down the routes that could be used, the speed of the limousine..."

"Two agents, Lawson and Sorrels , were on the surface, the principal agents involved in the planning and selection of the route..."  "Lawson told the HSCA He Could Not Identify the person who selected the turn".  Confusingly, (this is Vince, not me - RB) Lawson also told the HSCA on 1/31/78, " He did not accompany Dallas Agent Forrest Sorrels  on the tour of the route which they each say they made together on 11/14/63 (Huh???, What???).  From the HSCA's 3/15/78 interview with Sorrels, we learn a startling detail: "Sorrels recalled that when driving the motorcade route, prior to the actual motorcade, the turned from Main street on to Houston and SA Lawrence was startled to see the building facing them.  He asked Sorrels what building it was and Sorrels told him it was the Texas School Book Depository."...yet the final route included the turn facing the warehouse."

I think Vince, (if I may), leaves some things understated or unstated from my view, I'm not trying to put words into his mouth.   The Secret Service knew the TSBD was there well before the parade.  They also knew their written protocol Required them to secure Any building on a slow turn on a Presidential parade.  They did not.  Personally I don't think this was an accident.  Further, Dallas Special Agent In Charge of the Dallas Secret Service Office Forrest Sorrels knew that when he approved the selection (by whom?) of the Dallas Trade Mart as the site of JFK's speech on 11/4 that a parade down Main Street would likely/logically take him down Elm, past the TSBD.    

[…]

JIM DIEUGENIO:

Absolutely hilarious.

"Hardcore"?

What the heck is LIfton Davey?    Body snatching, body alteration, fake Zapruder film.

Is that supposed to be what, "softcore" stuff?

So do you buy all that now, or just using him because he threw you a bone, and a pretty licked over on at that? Since you used most of that info already.

Please, when you come up with some research like Vince did, let us know.

In the meantime, we will all go to sleep since it will never happen.

DAVID LIFTON

Since, as the saying goes, the fish rots "from the top", it is my personal opinion that key figures in this whole mess were DPD Chief Curry and Asst Chief Batchelor.  I also believe that the Deputy Chiefs, including Lumpkin and Stevenson were involved. 

JIM DIEUGENIO:

And Von Pein keeps on posting that story he posted days ago about the route being set by the 19th.  Ignoring two facts:

1. The later stories on the 20th and 22nd in the DMN which contradict the dogleg route.

2. Palamara's four witnesses who say the route was changed 24 hours before the motorcade.

I don't know if this has been acknowledged yet, but a lurker has alerted me that there were three editions of the DMN that day. All denoted by a different amount of stars.

DAVID LIFTON:

The Dallas Morning News routinely ran multiple editions every single day, each one bearing a different number of stars. (So there was a "one-star", a "two-star," etc. up to about "5 stars").  This has been true for decades.

FWIW: I've just ordered a fresh copy of Palamara's book, because I want to re-read these passages, and check out the documentation.

JIM DIEUGENIO:

Walton somehow cannot bring himself to address the underlying fallacy in Lifton's reply.

If you take Lifton at his word, then why would the WC be wrong about anything?  Why would the FBI be wrong about anything?  

But the point is, we know they were wrong about everything.

For many, many reasons.  One of them being that they lied and misrepresented testimony and evidence.

I have a whole chapter on this in The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today. 

So the idea that somehow what someone says years later cannot be true, that is just plain nonsense.  I mean LIfton's book is built upon that idea. 

And BTW, there were three other witnesses Vince had that said that. Not just Bellah.

[DVP: Anyway, thanks for the "multiple editions" information, David L.; it's certainly something I didn't realize until now.----!!!]

------------
DAVID LIFTON:
Hi Vince:

A few hours ago, I completed a very careful reading of your entire write-up of Floyd Boring. I don't know how you manage to keep track of all these different details.  Quite an accomplishment.  And I really liked the video where you countered Clint Hill's statement(s) that he never received, or didn't bother to read, your letter, with you holding up a copy of the "return receipt" (which he signed).  

Hill deserves credit for racing to the limo on 11/22/63, but a lot of his behavior since then has not been particularly admirable.  Also, and as I'm sure you remember, Clint Hill apparently made a series of notes about 11/22/63; and during the period when he was seeing a psychiatrist, he was apparently advised that for sake of his mental health, he should destroy those notes; and so, he said (to Brian Lamb's considerable astonishment, as I recall) that he destroyed his notes! (Shades of Dr. Humes!)

 Wouldn't it have been great had there been a serious Grand Jury investigation of all these issues and not the shallow and superficial questioning done by the Warren Commission?  And had there been such an event, you would ave been ideal as an informal "advisor."   What I found most interesting--and truly shocking--was your reporting about the Manchester materials at Wesleyan. And their statement that some of these key interviews won't be released until "2067". FYI: Around 1985, I attended the "Hofstra Conference" on the JFK Presidency.  Dave Powers and others were there, and so was William Manchester. I vividly recall a scene in one of the reception areas, where William Manchester stood, surrounded by a circle of eager listeners (mostly students) and stating, quite forcefully, words to the effect that "I had so much information "against" Lyndon Johnson that, had it been released at the time, it could have prevented him from being re-nominated for the presidency in Atlantic City (referring to the August 1964 Democratic National Convention held in Atlantic City, New Jersey.  Manchester never spelled out the specific of what his "information" was--just that it would ave prevented LBJ from being re-nominated.

DSL

6/3/2018 - 5:25 AM PDT

South Orange County, California
--------------------
---------------------

UPDATED:
6/10/18
DON JEFFRIES

Vince Palamara is one of the few in our fractured JFK assassination community doing real, worthwhile research. 
Thanks, Vince- know that a lot of us out here appreciate your hard work. 

JIM DIEUGENIO
I agree with Don.
VInce is really going all out with these photographs.
I really appreciate this work and the fact he is making it public for everyone. 

What I get from this, among other things, is that the bubble top was used quite often, and there are all kinds of versions of it, partial, two thirds, full.
And the partial one would not really have separated Kennedy from the crowds, which is the excuse the SS used for not putting it on that day, that was when they were in their "Blame Kennedy for his death mode."  Which they are still doing, right?
Its amazing looking at those pics just how much of a collapse Dallas was.  In every way.
As I have often said, in the JFK case, you really needed a prosecutor that was going to go head to head with these guys like Lawson, Sorrells, and Rowley.  At the very least, they all should have been fired.


PAMELA BROWN

Great work, Vince.  Thanks for sharing.   


early July 2018 RE: MY INFRASTRUCTURE POST

JIM DIEUGENIO

Very informative VInce.  Only you can do something like this.

 

Gives the rest of us the framework.  

B.A. COPELAND

Hey Vince amazing work...seriously. Thank you. I was wondering if you’ve found anything of specific interest to you in the newest (or most recent) document releases or are you still digging lol?


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